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Oral history recording with Neda Renzi. Recorded as part of the Italian Memories in Wales project (2008-10), delivered by ACLI-ENAIP and funded by the National Lottery Heritage Fund.

Summary part 1 00.37 Neda talks about her grandparents- their names and provenance, they were both from the outskirts of Turin. Her grandfather worked as a fattore who managed the farmers in the area. She explains how the farmers in the area worked for a larger farm or fattoria which was owned by a nobleman. Her grandfather was the fattore and her grandmother was fattoressa; the housekeeper. Her grandparents married at quite an old age around forty and had to leave their jobs in order to get married. Many farmers worked for the fattoria, but each farm was independent, they were called poderi in Tuscany. The poderi would have around ten or twelve hectares of land and each fattoria would have around ten, fifteen or sometimes twenty farmers. In Tuscany the farming system was mezzadria, the farmer did the work and the owner provided all the tools, the manure, the seeds and the animals. They then divided the harvest in half. After the Second World War the system changed and 60 percent was given to the farmer, 40 percent to the landowner.

10.07 Neda describes her grandfather and grandmother. The family would gather in the kitchen because during the winter the stove made the room very warm. They would also have ceramic containers with a handle that would be filled with coals and act as heaters that stayed warm all day. Neda’s grandmother always had one of these with her and would heat up apples on it, she recalls the smell. Neda shared a room with her grandmother. When her father married her grandparents and aunt lived in the same house as her parents; she felt united and protected having the whole family together, it was an open house with guests coming and going. Neda’s father was Leonetto and her mother Adalgisa, maiden name Bausi. When her grandmother died her mother took over the housekeeping. They lived in a large house, with around fifteen rooms. There was a basement where the barrels were kept for wine making. The house was very large and cold and Neda describes it in more detail. After some time in Castelfranco di Sopra near Arezzo they went to live in Florence.

19.29 The town was built in the 1300s. It has been noted as one of the prettiest villages in Tuscany: a medieval walled town with a tower. Everyone worked as farmers, there was no industry, whereas now the village has extended and there are factories on the outskirts. There were some small shops but farming was the main industry. Farmers grew grapes, olives, grain, vegetables and potatoes. Animals were kept only to help with work. Neda’s family didn’t work the land, but rented out land to ten farmers whose farms made up the fattoria. They gave them farm products and harvest in return. Products were also sold in and around the village. Neda had four younger sisters and a younger brother who died at six months. She says that they lived the life of princesses as her father was the podestà, the mayor of the village. He was very respected and they lived a very good life until the war started. It was a very outdoors life, she talks of various games they would play.

30.00 In the town there were some craftsmen- the shoemaker, ironmonger, carpenter. She remembers characters from the village. One such character was Cilindro, ‘cylinder’, who was a town joker. Almost everyone had a nickname in the town. Il Padone was called so as he couldn’t pronounce his r’s as a child, they called him padone instead of padrone (boss). Out of work hours the community would socialise in the circoli: clubs where men would play billiards, cards and drink. Women worked in the house and gathered after dinner around the fire in the winter: chatting, embroidering, knitting. There was also a cinema which would come to the town every Sunday and take place in a small room. Neda describes the films they saw, often dubbed American films. They were dubbed as a lot of people would have been illiterate, films are still usually dubbed in Italy and it is considered a real skill.

40.00 There were a lot of town traditions that would be carried out in Castelfranco di Sopra. They would have the festa della grandine, ‘hailstone festival’. People from surrounding towns would have a procession to the church in Castelfranco with their priest and pray that the hailstones wouldn’t ruin their crops. There was also the Corpus Cristi/Corpus Domini; the whole town would collect flowers from outside the town and gather them in piles of different colours which they would use to make mosaics with the petals on the roads. Different parts of the town would then compete against each other. She goes on to describe her first communion- she got up very early and they would dress the girls in elaborate bride dresses. The priest was a very important person in the town, Neda describes him, everyone would obey the priest in those times. The church was strict; they would have to wear long socks, long sleeves and their head would have to be covered to go into the church.

53.00 The town was built in the 1200s or the 1300s so there is a very old church which Neda describes. The family home was built in the 1400s and Neda describes it as very old and strong. During the bombings in the area, the family would hide underneath the door arches as they were very strong. Church mass was carried out in Latin until the 1960s. They would learn the words by heart, often not understanding them. In Tuscany people study and speak what is considered ‘pure’ Italian, though slang is still spoken.

Summary part 2 00.00 Neda gives examples of slang in Tuscany. The school Neda went to was very strict. She describes the school system: primary school from six to eleven years. In Neda’s village there was only a primary school so Neda went to live with her aunt in Florence to go to secondary school. Teachers were very respected. Neda recalls one teacher who was very good, they would be taught geography, history, poetry and art at primary school. Discipline was reinforced by the cane.

05.07 Neda was very lucky as she had a good basic education. School was obligatory up to a certain point: those whose parents were farmers would help on the farm instead. For that reason many Italians were illiterate. Children from surrounding villages travelled to the school and church, some walking for an hour to get there. Secondary school was different in the fact that they would have different teachers for different lessons. Neda never got used to living in Florence, she doesn’t have fond memories of that time, her aunt was strict and it was difficult leaving the countryside. Neda’s family followed her to Florence as her father was employed by the Monte dei Paschi di Siena bank. They would return to Castelfranco di Sopra for the holidays.

11.16 Things changed immensely when the war started; rations were put in place and there was a lot of bombing. The German army knew that Florence was a centre for art so it wasn’t bombed as much as other cities. Neda had finished school at that time and was employed in the same bank as her father. He worked at the counter and she worked in the office. When the men in Florence were called up many women worked in the bank, they were called emergenti. Neda’s mother still worked as a housewife and her sisters were still at school. Neda’s most vivid memory of the war was fear of bombing and having to get up in the middle of the night on hearing the sirens. Neda’s family lived just outside the city and would go into the fields during raids. She remembers those times as the most difficult, though as youngsters they didn’t think too much about the war but got on with things.

16.00 In Florence, during the bombing people would go into basements, they didn’t have shelters. Neda wasn’t afraid as such of the bombing, because she had very little experience of that where they lived. The family lived near the air base, which they always expected to be bombed but never was. She was more scared waking up in the middle of the night and having to go outside in the cold. War time was difficult, they would take apart old clothes to make new clothes, everything was recycled. They were fortunate with food as they had land which the poderi, farmers worked on. The ration inspectors would come to measure out their ration and take what was left. They would often hide grain so it wouldn’t be taken. They had animals to live off, so they didn’t suffer from hunger, though at the time to best present you could give somebody if you went to their house was a piece of bread. These friends would have been living in the city where it was also difficult to obtain food. Neda’s family did have food but not very much of it, her father had lost a lot of weight after the war.

21.07 There were fascist soldiers where she lived, everyone was fascist at the time. When Mussolini fell immediately everyone became antifascist. People could only get a job if they had the fascist tessera or card, children were brought up on stories about fascism and Mussolini. Neda goes on to describe the various names that were given to fascist children of different ages: Ballila were young boys, giovani italiane for girls, piccole italiane for younger girls. Giovani italiane would wear uniforms; black skirts, white shirt with black overcoat and black beret. Piccole italiane would wear a black skirt, blouse and tie. Boys were called figli della lupa (children of the wolf) as very young boys, they then became balilla, then avanguardisti. Girls were piccole italiane, then giovani italiane. She recalls going marching and carrying out gym displays in the football stadium. They would be put in a formation where some would close their black overcoats and others would open them to show the white shirts, the white shirts in the formation would spell out Viva il duce (Long Live Mussolini).

26.37 Neda says that Mussolini did a lot of good things for Italy. Many people suffered from malaria in areas just south of Rome. Mussolini put land reclamation and anti-malaria projects in place in the Pontine marshes: they drained the land, built canals and towns, gave land and cattle to farmers so that they could work the land there. However subsequently Mussolini became ‘big headed’ which was his downfall. ‘He thought he was Caesar’ Neda says. In school they were taught that Mussolini was the saviour of Italy. Her parents knew better but as children they were brought up in school with fascism. Before the fall of Mussolini no one would rebel against fascism, if they did it was kept very underground. After the fall of Mussolini the partisan groups started to actively fight against fascism.

30.30 Rebels against fascism would be arrested or exiled to islands or towns where they kept antifascists. Neda talks of a book which she later recognises as Primo Levi’s If this is a man, she believes that Primo Levi was sent to one of these camps. After the fall of Mussolini, German soldiers came to where they lived. Neda recalls confrontations between German and Partisan soldiers. If the partisans killed a German soldier, German soldiers might retaliate by killing more civilians. Neda recalls a situation when civilians and a priest were killed by German soldiers. When Neda’s family home just outside Florence was taken over by German soldiers as a headquarters as it was large and near the airport. They came into the house and demanded that Neda’s family leave. Neda had been taught German at school and asked them to let the family have a room of the house in exchange for help interpreting. They accepted and the family were able to stay. Many houses were taken over completely by German Soldiers. When the soldiers left Italians would then enter and take what was left. Neda recalls a house which was stripped of everything, because everyone was poor at the time.

35.20 Neda worked as an interpreter for the German soldiers in return for a room in the house. Neda recalls an incident when an Italian came and told her that the German soldiers had stolen all the grain they had left. She affronted a German Commander who then called the soldier and made them give it back. The family had to show good face to the soldiers, but they were made to peel potatoes and other things for them. The family kept people who had escaped the war in their house unbeknown to the soldiers. They were soldier and two policemen who they claimed were relatives. Neda’s father had a revolver in the house and her mother had hidden it under the floor in a wooden box. Neda recalls that one day they saw a soldier holding a similar wooden box and thought they had found the gun, fortunately they hadn’t. The Germans in the house were Wehrmacht as opposed to SS soldiers. One officer in particular was very understanding and stayed with the family after the Germans retreated to defend them against the SS in case they passed the house. The soldiers didn’t ill treat them, they were four young girls and they never put in any danger. However the soldiers left the family with nothing, they ate only chestnuts for months.

Summary part 3 00.00 Neda explains how the SS and he Wehrmacht were different. Neda believes there may have been SS in the area but her family didn’t see them. Her father was called up to fight in the war but as he was injured during the First World War and so was consequently let go. A lot of Neda’s friends were called up as it was obligatory to fight from the age of twenty one. She didn’t meet Italian soldiers during the war as they were all elsewhere. The one escaped soldier who was living with them left the army; he had been at the airbase near their house, after the 8th of September: the fall of Mussolini and break-up of the Italian army. After that time German soldiers occupied Italy and many Italian soldiers escaped so as not to be captured by them. Some hid and some joined the partisan groups. Neda didn’t meet the partisan groups as they were mostly in hiding in the mountains. She had one friend who was a partisan but only discovered this after the war.

During the war Neda and her friends would meet at each other’s houses, play records and dance. Dancing was prohibited by Mussolini so it had to be done in secret with quiet music; people had to act in an austere way during the war. The cinema and cafes were open until where they lived became the front line. After that they couldn’t go out at all for a month. Neda recalls that the Germans bombed the bridges of Florence: they didn’t want to destroy the city but needed to make it difficult for allied forces to take it. They destroyed every bridge in Florence. The famous Ponte Vecchio was saved only because a road leading to the bridge was destroyed instead. However there was a hidden passage from Palazzo Vecchio to Palazzo Pitti (which were joined by the bridge) through which many partisans were able to travel unseen.

13.32 Neda recalls free time during the war: she recalls the films they would watch and the songs they would sing. After the war Neda got married to an English airman who she met when the English and the Americans took over the air base. She moved to Wales in 1946.

Summary part 4 00.00 Neda talks about the fascist colonie: holiday camps for children during the fascist regime. Children were sent to the sea, Rimini for example, to improve their health. Those who could afford it would pay for the trip, whereas others would have costs paid by the government. It was a very positive thing, particularly for poorer children.

Summary part 5 00.00 The colonie were organised by the school through the fascist group. As Neda couldn’t go on holiday with her family she was sent on colonie for a month or so. Neda recalls the songs they would sing during the fascist regime: they give her fond memories of being in her late teens in Italy. They were in fact very political songs which, as youngsters, they didn’t fully understand. Neda believes that the colonie were one of the positive things that Mussolini did for Italy.

04.30 Tuscany is known for talking a more standard, pure Italian but there is also slang spoken in Florence. The history of ‘pure’ Italian in Tuscany goes back to Dante who wrote for the first time in volgare, spoken Italian language, instead of Latin which was the language that had always been used in writing until that time. Neda supposes that had Dante not been the first to write in spoken Italian, perhaps the dialect from another region would have become known as the standard Italian.

Summary part 6 00.00 Neda talks about her experiences after the war. She describes the day the war ended as an ‘explosion of joy’ for everyone. The war finished for Neda and her family when the German soldiers left Florence and the Allied forces took over. She remembers it was at the end of August that the Allied forces took Florence. However her family were North of the Arno river whereas the Allied soldiers were still on the south, so they were still under German control. This continued for one month, the worst time during the war for Neda and her family, as they were on the front battle line. That was the point when the German soldiers took over their house to house officials and Neda stood up to them offering interpreting services in exchange for a room in the house for her family. She recalls again their experiences during that time. As an interpreter she was able to help other people in the area when they experienced problems with the German soldiers. The soldiers were sending an ill man to a work camp, she stopped them.

07.42 When the Allied Forces came to the area Neda says that everything changed: they had white bread, chocolate, chicken she recalls people going crazy for the food that the soldiers were throwing away. Her family had some grain during the war as they had fields but her father lost a lot of weight. She recalls that after the Germans retreated, people started leaving their houses, going out, cleaning. Her father, having been a colonel in the war warned the people not to move about too much as it might provoke the allied forces who still weren’t aware that the Germans had left the area. In fact she recalls that they experienced the worst bombing of the war from the allied forces after the Germans had left. They sent partisans to tell the allied soldiers that the German soldiers had left and they stopped. The partisans did a lot in the area against the German soldiers, they fought them in head to head in the street. The partisans at that time had taken over the role of the national armed forces which had disintegrated.

12.49 Neda explains that the partisans all went into hiding in the forests in the mountains nearby to escape being taken prisoner by the German soldiers occupying the area. Many Italian politicians were partisans during the war. The partisans were considered as heroes by the Italian population as they were the only people fighting for the Italians at that time. After the war they lived by candlelight for almost two years, as when the German soldiers destroyed the bridges they also destroyed the electricity lines as well. They would put paraffin or fuel in a bottle, put cotton inside and light it. In the morning they would wake up with black nostrils as they had been breathing in the smoke. She doesn’t remember these times as bad, and thinks this is because she was young and accepted it.

17.00 Neda describes her work in Monte dei Paschi di Siena bank during the war, where women took the jobs of men who had gone to war. She worked there for four years in total, she left when she married her husband. The bank was strict and they all wore a uniform and they worked without a break from eight until two in the afternoon. During the winter there was no heating so they would heat their hands on the electric lamps on the desks, yet she always looks fondly on that period where she worked in the bank. She recalls the sense of community in the bank. They worked very hard but they would also meet outside work for cycle rides. The fact that women worked during the war contributed a lot to the emancipation of women. They were happy to be able to earn money, and to work not imply in the house. She didn’t earn much, two hundred and fifty lire, but she recalls receiving her first pay packet as a special moment. She bought a powder compact with her first pay packet. Neda recalls that they had an amateur dramatics group, they performed in prisons. Neda was the lead with another girl who became a famous theatre and television artist.

23.00 Neda talks of how she met her husband. He was an airman who was based in the airport near their house. The British soldiers would always have to pass their house before going to the base, she recalls three air men in particular. One had a young baby at home and had bought her slippers which were too small for her so he gave them to Neda’s aunt’s granddaughter. As a thank you they invited him in. When he went back to the base Neda’s future husband Gordon had ripped his trousers, having seen a sewing machine in the house the other airman took them there. Gordon went to pick them up and that’s when he and Neda met.

27.51 They communicated in a mixture of English, French and Italian as Neda hadn’t studied a lot of English at school she says a lot of it was down to physical attraction. They married in Italy and had a child and stayed in Italy until the war with Japan was over. After that Neda’s husband travelled to Britain and Neda followed on a train for all the war brides. She recalls the journey, the train was very comfortable but she was travelling on her own with a baby and all her luggage and experienced very difficult moments. When they arrived in Calais to get the ferry it had been cancelled due to bad weather. They were taken to a hut full of soldiers and had to wait until the morning when the ferry could run. She was seasick on the boat and others helped her with her baby. When they arrived at Victoria station they were put in a Salvation Army hospital. She remembers the cold and it was her birthday. When she arrived at her in-laws house they had prepared a high tea for her.

36.00 Neda didn’t have too many expectations of Britain but found that it was very different to her life in Italy. They had a Catholic wedding in Italy, which was normal as they were both Catholic. There were certain things that were lacking as it was still wartime but the Naafi provided them with food. Her brides dress was not white, they were rationed and Neda had something that she could wear again. She brought very little to Britain as she only had one suitcase. She recalls one incident during the journey where a young girl of sixteen or seventeen became upset and threatened to throw her baby out of the window. They managed to calm her down and informed the authorities but really people had to look after themselves. She recalls that it was incredibly difficult for her to leave. In Wales Neda already had one child and quickly became pregnant with another. She went to have her baby in Florence with her family. Her husband followed and tried to find work in Italy however it was very difficult. They started to build council houses in Caerphilly and as by that time Neda had three children she was high on the priority list.

46.17 Everything was completely different for Neda when she moved. She bought Woman magazine and learnt English from that with a dictionary. She couldn’t go out to work as she had children to look after but she found sewing work she could do at home. She then started teaching Italian when the children were older. Her husband was working in the Tinplate factory in Caerphilly. He lost that job and they went on to run a pub in Risca. They then moved to Bridgend and their fourth child was born. The pub was called the Ship Hotel. Her husband died very young at fifty and Neda started teaching with Enaip. She has always been very independent with a can do attitude. When asked why so many Italians started their own businesses she says that they do seem to have a flair for business. Many Italians in the area emigrated before the Second World War and were already settled, so Neda didn’t meet many Italian people in the area. She talks of the Ferrari family, Elena Germain. The Ferrari family worked in the Conti cafe which was opened before the Second World War it is now closed. The Cavalli family still have a fish and chip shop.

Summary part 7 00.00 Neda didn’t return to Italy very much when she was first in Wales as her children were young at the time. After her husband died and when they gave up the pub she went back to Italy every year. She always loves going back and has always felt Italian and has dual nationality. When she does go back people tell her she hasn’t changed, she still has a regional accent and uses the old language that people were using sixty years ago in Tuscany. It isn’t spoken anymore and surprises them now. She regrets that she didn’t speak Italian to her children all the time. However most of the time she was with her mother in law who couldn’t understand Italian. Once she had started to speak to them Italian it was difficult to stop. Now they have learnt to speak Italian. Her daughter has a degree in Italian and English and her son Carl carries out lectures in Italy, he is an oceanographer. They all understand Italian but some are more shy to speak it.

06.59 Neda taught Italian in schools in Wales. All her sisters are teachers though Neda has never studied teaching. Neda helped her father in his office and concentrated more on business school. She stays linked with her Italian roots through watching Italian programmes on television, reading books by Italian authors, follows the news in Italy and keeps up with the Italian language through crosswords. She cooks Italian food when she can but to cook it properly it takes a long time. Traditionally the Italian women would spend all day at home preparing food. When asked about the differences between Italy and Wales she talks about the Italian style and deeper interest in culture. Neda wouldn’t move back to Italy as it has changed and she hasn’t changed with it. She enjoys going back for holidays but she has children and grandchildren here. She thinks her son Carl would consider moving to Italy, he has a house and job prospects there and seems very Italian. All her children are linked to Italy to varying extents yet she still remains Italian through and through and always will.